To Matt P.

[kst324]

Hello Matt,

As a new Super8 filmmaker I've read several of your posts about dissatifaction at Pro8mm or Super8 Sound (whatever thier called) and was wondering how your personal experiences had deterred you from using thier services again.

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[Matt Pacini]

I'll try to be brief about this, because I've posted comments on Super 8 Sound before, and I don't want to bore anyone.
But I also want you to get the true story, of my experience anyway.

I lived in L.A. from 1982-1993, and around 1990, I started getting interested in filmmaking.
I, like many people on this board, made the mistake of thinking that Super 8 Sound (I guess now they're "Pro8mm") had a monopoly on Super 8 filming and equipment.
So naturally, I went there several times to make all my initial purchases of film, slate, etc.

I started to get more and more serious about shooting Super 8, even when I moved back up to Sacramento, and I continued to buy stuff from them, both mail order, and on my occasional trips to L.A.
I'd say I actually went into the store around 10 times over about a 5 year period or so.
I was annoyed at their rude unhelpful service, and outrageous "retail + 25%" prices, but simply thought I had no choice. (This was even before they started even doing the Pro8 neg stock, and it was way before I was on the internet, & ebay, etc. was around).

I mean, not once did anyone ever say "thank you" when I bought stuff there. Not one time.
They would just take my money, hand me the stuff, and walk off, like I was getting a government handout or something.
And these were different employees over a multi-year span, not just one occasion with one employee.
So I got fed up, and started hunting around for equipment, and found there were lots of places that sold Super 8 stuff.
But after I was deep into shooting my feature, Lost Tribes, I made the same mistake again:
I believed that nobody else could transfer my film to video.
So I called Super 8 Sound, to get info on what I needed to do before going in:
How long my leaders needed to be, what kind of splices were OK or not OK, etc.
The secretary or whatever would not ever let me talk to one of the guys who do transfers.
(It's the gatekeeper syndrome there, big time).
She would say "wow, they're really busy, why don't you just book the session and bring your film in".
She was totally unconcerned that I needed to have these questions answered first, BEFORE i booked the session.
So she would take a message, saying "I don't know when they will be able to call back, they're really busy."
No return call.
I would call back. Different person on the phone, but same answers. Take a message.
I did this for about four months without them ever calling me back!!!!
So I finally got pissed off, and started calling other post production houses in L.A., that do professional RANK transfers, of course, thinking that they were going to laugh me off the phone when I mentioned Super 8.
Well, guess what? They do it all the time.
And every single place I called, had someone on the line answering my questions THAT VERY PHONE CALL!
So I went to Sunset Post in Glendale, CA and they were great. They do tons of top, big budget movies, and they treated me like a pro.
The owner even came in and talked to me about my project, and thought it was cool that someone made a feature on Super 8.
So this crap I keep hearing about "if you want to deal with pro's then you have to put up with a little attitude" etc., is just B.S., because in L.A., there is a lot of competition, and these people know it, and go out of their way to be nice.
EXCEPT Super 8 Sound, because they think that everyone is too stupid to know they can get ALL OF THEIR SERVICES ELSEWHERE!

You can get Kodak Neg Stock, Vision 200T directly from Kodak for 1/2 what Super 8 Sound sells it for, and K-40 for ten bucks.
You can telecine almost anywhere, you can get all your stock developed at many other places, all of them cheaper than Super 8 Sound.
And everything in the way of equipment, can be had for cheaper elsewhere, whether it's new or used.

I can forgive the high prices, but the arrogant, rude attitude, and baldface lying, and being totally unhelpful, is just beyond what I can stand.

I have heard lots of stories of people being ripped off from them too, and I mean lots of stories.
One guy, said he took a camera in there, they said it needed all this stuff done to it, and it was really expensive.
He paid it, got the camera back, and it was still not fixed.
So he took it to a local place, and the guy said they didn't do anything their work order said they did.
So just for a test, he had someone else bring the same camera in to Super 8 Sound, for a checkup, and they said all this other stuff was wrong with it!
The same camera they had just supposedly fixed!

Matt Pacini

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[Scott Spears]

Hey Matt,

I understand that you don't like Pro8 and I won't defend them because I've never used them (although the commercial I just shot used them, but I haven't seen the final transfer), but be careful what you say about them. In your post, you talk about your personal experiences with them and being treated rudely, etc... That's ok, but the story about the camera repair scam (and I'm not saying it didn't happen) is hearsay and could be border on libel. Again, I'm not defending Pro8 and if they did pull that scam, then they are kind of slimey, but be careful what you say. You should encourage the guy who claims he got scammed to post his story.

Scott

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[Matt Pacini]

Scott, I understand your concern, and I hesitated before mentioning that story.
But that was one of about 5 different ones I have heard, by people who didn't know each other, so I do belive it.
Sure, I don't know for a fact it happened, but I can't imagine they don't know what their reputation is.

I think they realize that their customers are made up from two camps:

1. Newbies who see their ads, and think that they are the only source for Super 8 products and services.

2. People working on pro mid or high budget films or music videos, who don't care what something costs, and would rather pay an inflated amount of money, than scrounge on ebay, or whatever for the best deals.

So I don't think they care about what I say about them, beacuse it really doesn't have any effect anyway, I don't think.
Most people who are inclinded to deal with them, will do it anyway.

Matt Pacini




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[Scott Spears]

Matt,

I can understand your anger at them. I've heard rumblings about them for a long time.

I think the best thing to let people know, like you do, that there are other companies that handle Super-8.

Personally, I hope they do good work because I have that commercial I shot running through them.

Scott


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[KatieTrimble]

Hello Matt. As an employee of Pro8mm I find the things you mention about the company very interesting. I understand that people are intitled to thier own feelings and opinions about whatever matter they discuss.

During my time at Pro8mm I've always tried to be patient and kind with customers. Whether it be the more expierenced types or the newbies who just recently discovered S8. I have also heard stories like yours and can understand why some people don't want to deal with us considering thier past expieriences.

You had mentioned that the last time you dealt with Pro8mm was in the early 90s. Have you tried them at any time after that? I know there has been many staffing changes due to less than nice employees. I'm not implying you should try us again, I'm just wondering if you had.

If I was treated badly at a company, I too, would probably look elsewhere for my needs. I've never run across anyone who has been treated badly then said "Hey, I really like that place." I can understand where you're coming from.

The friend of yours who had his camera fixed, did he ever take it back and say that there must have been a mistake? I know for a fact that the technicians at Pro8mm really do put time and effort into fixing a camera once the owner oks the work order. I'm sure if he would've returned the camera along with a recept of work performed and showed his dissatisfaction with it, they would have had no problem either taking a look at what went wrong or issuing a refund.

Katie

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[Supa-eight]

Katie,

I am glad to see that someone from your company is out there seeing what people have to say. After all, we could be potential business to your company if many of these issues people speek of are resolved in the most mature fashion. I have seen your posts on the Shooting 8mm forum before and would like to suggest that you browse this forum more often and try to represent your business for all these people who seem dissatisfied. I myself, like many others on this forum, have been hesitant to deal with Pro8mm because of all the poor feedback people are giving. I just think this would be better for both parties; the customers and the business. Maybe you could even relay some of the information back to your co-workers so any complaints could be solved more effectively.

Just a thought from an unbiased Super 8 filmmaker.

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[leesnedaker]

A little more to add if you all dont mind.

I have recently gotten into S8 and found the Pro8 web site right away. I too did not do much research into what other companys were out there. Anyway I bought a Beaulieu from the net, shot some film and discovered some dirt I did not like.

Called Pro8 explained what I was seeing and sent the camera in for a look after a quote of around $100 to open the camera and $50hr therafter.

Got a call said it was very most likely the internal gel that needed to be taken out. I spoke with the technician and he said 2hr tops for him to pluck out the gel without opening the camera up. Price for pulling out me gel filter in 2hr $240!

I think this is quite a price differance from what I was told before so I mention it and pretty much got the run around on the reasone people like to charge more.

Anyway I have had a couple other good experiences with Pro8 buying some other stuff but this one was just to much cash to shell out.

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[leesnedaker]

A little more to add if you all dont mind.

I have recently gotten into S8 and found the Pro8 web site right away. I too did not do much research into what other companys were out there. Anyway I bought a Beaulieu from the net, shot some film and discovered some dirt I did not like.

Called Pro8 explained what I was seeing and sent the camera in for a look after a quote of around $100 to open the camera and $50hr therafter.

Got a call said it was very most likely the internal gel that needed to be taken out. I spoke with the technician and he said 2hr tops for him to pluck out the gel without opening the camera up. Price for pulling out me gel filter in 2hr $240!

I think this is quite a price differance from what I was told before so I mention it and pretty much got the run around on the reasone people like to charge more.

Anyway I have had a couple other good experiences with Pro8 buying some other stuff but this one was just to much cash to shell out.

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[Matt Pacini]

Katie,
I'm glad you responded here.
I only hope that you take the things you hear out here about your company, and bring them back and tell Phil, because that's the only thing that's going to effectively change Pro8mm's reputation: real changes in practice.

Actually, the early 90's were when I first started going to Super 8 Sound, not stopped.
I now live in the Sacramento area, but frequently visit L.A., and in fact, most of the times I went into your store to buy stuff was after I moved up here.
I think the last time was probably around 1998 or 1999, but the situation I described about nobody there ever letting me talk to a colorist was in 2000.

So my experiences were based on about 7 years of sporadic stopping in your store, as well as over the phone service, and every time, there were different employees that I dealt with, but I got the same treatment every time.

To be more specific, usually the only person I ever spoke with was one of the girls in the front, that wait on walk-in customers and answer the phone.

All of them, and I mean on every single occasion, whether I came into the store, or called, exhibited what I call "The Gatekeeper Function".
They could not answer anything but the most basic questiosn, but would never, ever let me speak with anyone else there about anything, ever.
Everyone was always too busy, period.
No calls were ever returned, the most helpful they would ever be was to point to the brochures on the wall, tell me to look in there to see what I wanted to buy, and walk off.

I am not a rank beginner, or an obnoxious customer, or whatever.
I didn't do anything to warrant rudeness, etc., and yet when I did buy things, not once did the girls ever say thank you.
They would just hand me my change and walk off.
(I usually bought film stock, but I also got my slate there and a couple other things, including 2 Super 8 movies on VHS when you guys used to sell them).

Since this happened over a multi-year period, I can only conclude that it is part of the culture of the company.
I have spoken with Phil at the Showbiz Expo, and he's a great guy. I just think that either he doesn't know how customers are being treated, or he doesn't care because he has all the business he wants or whatever.

But this is a completely different treatment than I've gotten anywhere else, even when I'm looking for small, insignificant items, like Super 8 leader, for instance.
I went to Christies Editorial in Burbank, and they would take me back in the warehouse, have guys chasing through boxes to look for a Super8 rewind for me, etc.,
Sunset Post in Glendale gave me a grand tour of the facility, everyone was nice, I was taken into a sales rep's office and offered a drink while he gave me my quote, etc.
These are just a couple examples of how OTHER places treat their customers, and these places knew I was just doing Super 8.
That's quite a contrast with how one is treated at Pro8mm.

1. Can't talk to anyone with technical knowledge in person or on the phone.

2. You will never, ever get anywhere but the little space in front of the counter, unless you commit and book your time.

3. Top, top prices for everything, without any attempt at competing with what anybody else charges.

4. After all this, if you spend your money there, you STILL are treated rudely.

Like I said, I'm glad you seem to be concerned with your company's image, but it's got to start at the top, and it's got to be in real, policy changes, or this is just worthless PR on your part.

There are lots and lots of us out here that know about other places that are more than willing to cater to the Super 8 crowd, and the fact that you guys split 35mm film and make "Pro8mm" stock is just simply not a big deal enough to act like you have a monopoly.

I will gladly do business with you again in the future if you change, and if I hear many, many success stories from other people out there.
But for the time being, I've already found other services that suit my needs, and are polite, have competitive prices, and do damn good work, I might add.

Matt Pacini



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